1 00:00:02,490 --> 00:00:04,670 >> Pat Ryan: The Modern Science Laboratory is designed 2 00:00:04,670 --> 00:00:08,450 to spend almost two years analyzing rock and soil samples 3 00:00:08,450 --> 00:00:12,730 to see if Mars is going to be favorable for microbial life 4 00:00:12,730 --> 00:00:16,430 or to preserve any end to preserve any clues they find 5 00:00:16,430 --> 00:00:18,950 about possible life that was there in the past. 6 00:00:18,950 --> 00:00:23,190 The robotic missions that are like this one are being worked 7 00:00:23,190 --> 00:00:25,700 from NASA centers all over the country. 8 00:00:25,700 --> 00:00:29,740 They are stepping stones to future missions to Mars. 9 00:00:29,740 --> 00:00:31,420 In fact, right here at the Johnson Space Center, 10 00:00:31,420 --> 00:00:34,800 there are teams that are working to develop the food 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,570 that human crews would eat on a mission that would take them 12 00:00:38,570 --> 00:00:40,710 to Mars and this morning we're going to learn more 13 00:00:40,710 --> 00:00:43,600 about that effort from Dr. Michele Perchonok 14 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,880 who is the Advanced Food Technology Project Scientist. 15 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:47,520 Good morning. 16 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,160 >> Pat: What how long has NASA been working on issues 17 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:53,490 about food for a mission to Mars? 18 00:00:53,490 --> 00:00:55,930 >> Dr. Perchonok: Well I've been at NASA for twelve years 19 00:00:55,930 --> 00:00:58,100 and they've been working on it a lot longer than that 20 00:00:58,100 --> 00:01:00,650 so I'm going to say about twenty years. 21 00:01:00,650 --> 00:01:03,260 >> Pat: I assume that we've taken whatever we've learned 22 00:01:03,260 --> 00:01:06,210 feeding crews on previous flights, on space station, 23 00:01:06,210 --> 00:01:09,260 on space shuttle and prior missions is being rolled 24 00:01:09,260 --> 00:01:10,650 in here. 25 00:01:10,650 --> 00:01:14,730 What are the basics in trying to develop something like this? 26 00:01:14,730 --> 00:01:16,970 >> Dr. Perchonok: Well we have actually we call it a two 27 00:01:16,970 --> 00:01:20,700 pronged food system so first is the packaged food system 28 00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:22,580 that we already have and are using 29 00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:24,950 on International Space Station but there's a little bit 30 00:01:24,950 --> 00:01:29,090 of a difference on International Space Station our food only has 31 00:01:29,090 --> 00:01:30,940 to last about eighteen months or so. 32 00:01:30,940 --> 00:01:31,900 >> Pat: Good. 33 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:34,880 >> Dr. Perchonok: but on a Mars mission they have to last 34 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,040 about five years so that takes into account the fact 35 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:39,780 that they'll probably preposition the food 36 00:01:39,780 --> 00:01:43,680 on orbit before the crew gets there, the time it takes for us 37 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,590 to make the food, as well as of course the time that they have 38 00:01:47,590 --> 00:01:51,560 to eat it so five year shelf life not seen anywhere else 39 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,330 except maybe our military. 40 00:01:53,330 --> 00:01:55,440 The other piece of the food system is once we're 41 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,540 on the surface we can do what we call a bioregenerative food 42 00:01:59,540 --> 00:02:03,050 system, that's growing in garmental chambers fresh fruits 43 00:02:03,050 --> 00:02:06,480 and vegetables, either growing or brining up in bulk, 44 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,180 things like soy beans, wheat berries, peanuts 45 00:02:09,180 --> 00:02:14,170 and then processing those into ingredients such as tofu, 46 00:02:14,170 --> 00:02:17,900 or wheat flower into bread, or into pasta and then 47 00:02:17,900 --> 00:02:22,290 of course the vegetables and fruit can be used for just pick 48 00:02:22,290 --> 00:02:25,670 and eat, or to process maybe into a tomato sauce, 49 00:02:25,670 --> 00:02:29,020 or into cooked vegetables so the packaged food side 50 00:02:29,020 --> 00:02:31,700 of things yes we have some experience but we have 51 00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:34,320 to go further but the bioregenerative side we're 52 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,210 really doing very little of that right now. 53 00:02:36,210 --> 00:02:39,460 >> Pat: Are you thinking in terms of growing it in the soil 54 00:02:39,460 --> 00:02:41,200 on Mars, growing food there? 55 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,130 >> Dr. Perchonok: No, so the thought is 56 00:02:43,130 --> 00:02:46,210 that we will instead be using environmental chambers 57 00:02:46,210 --> 00:02:52,110 which will control the temperature, the humidity, 58 00:02:52,110 --> 00:02:56,000 the lighting and then they would be grown hydroponically 59 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,290 so that we can recycle the water and nutrients would be put 60 00:02:59,290 --> 00:03:04,290 into the water and also because these chambers are limited 61 00:03:04,290 --> 00:03:08,200 in size we would probably also be looking at dwarf 62 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,200 like plants, so smaller version. 63 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:11,980 >> Pat: tiny vegetables. 64 00:03:11,980 --> 00:03:13,530 >> Dr. Perchonok: Well, cherry tomatoes instead 65 00:03:13,530 --> 00:03:14,720 of regular tomatoes, 66 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,030 cherry tomato plants might only grow one to two feet, 67 00:03:18,030 --> 00:03:21,800 whereas regular tomato plants could grow four feet or so. 68 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,400 >> Pat: In thinking about this I was thinking in terms 69 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,980 of feeding a crew on the way to Mars and that sounds to me 70 00:03:28,980 --> 00:03:31,070 like there are certain things you just have to do 71 00:03:31,070 --> 00:03:33,210 without because you can't refrigerate 72 00:03:33,210 --> 00:03:35,210 and you can't carry that much. 73 00:03:35,210 --> 00:03:37,150 >> Dr. Perchonok: Right so on the way to Mars, 74 00:03:37,150 --> 00:03:40,810 which is about a six month trip, and on the way home, 75 00:03:40,810 --> 00:03:42,590 which is also a six month trip, 76 00:03:42,590 --> 00:03:44,590 providing that the planets are aligned 77 00:03:44,590 --> 00:03:46,810 in their closest orientation, 78 00:03:46,810 --> 00:03:48,480 we would use a food system very similar 79 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:49,850 to International Space Station 80 00:03:49,850 --> 00:03:51,940 so it would be a packaged food system 81 00:03:51,940 --> 00:03:54,020 where they're individually packaged items 82 00:03:54,020 --> 00:03:59,000 for each crew member so it would be a serving of meatloaf, 83 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,470 or a serving of broccoli au gratin 84 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:05,860 and they would just basically rehydrate or heat that food. 85 00:04:05,860 --> 00:04:10,360 >> Pat: Is there enough, how much space does that much food 86 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,500 for that size crew take up? 87 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:15,750 >> Dr. Perchonok: It's a lot so if you assume 88 00:04:15,750 --> 00:04:19,360 and we don't know the crew size but if you assume a crew of six 89 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:25,260 and you assume 1,000 day mission, then we're talking 90 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:29,230 about almost or about twenty thousand pounds 91 00:04:29,230 --> 00:04:30,150 of packaged food. 92 00:04:30,150 --> 00:04:33,590 Now that doesn't assume any of the bioregenerative part. 93 00:04:33,590 --> 00:04:39,190 Twenty thousand pounds of food, the volume we calculated that 94 00:04:39,190 --> 00:04:41,620 and we think it's about the amount 95 00:04:41,620 --> 00:04:45,080 of three large refrigerators full so we're talking 96 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,430 about a small room or a large closet worth of food 97 00:04:49,430 --> 00:04:53,710 so doesn't sound like a lot but that's really, really, 98 00:04:53,710 --> 00:04:55,250 really tightly packed. 99 00:04:55,250 --> 00:04:58,800 >> Pat: Apparently it would seem to me that it would have to take 100 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,420 up a lot more room than that. 101 00:05:00,420 --> 00:05:01,720 >> Dr. Perchonok: Gut feel yes 102 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,930 and so you know we've done the calculations 103 00:05:04,930 --> 00:05:08,330 and again its taking into a lot of assumptions 104 00:05:08,330 --> 00:05:11,260 that we don't necessarily know the real answer 105 00:05:11,260 --> 00:05:14,060 so how is it going to be packaged? 106 00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:18,720 Are there going to be racks or other sort of secondary places 107 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,950 to stow them, in that case it would take more room 108 00:05:21,950 --> 00:05:24,030 so that kind of information we don't have 109 00:05:24,030 --> 00:05:28,030 yet so this is clearly just the food, nothing else, 110 00:05:28,030 --> 00:05:30,370 so if you're going to pack it into something and then pack it 111 00:05:30,370 --> 00:05:33,800 into something else, or you have to add foam to it 112 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,430 to protect the packaging, that all is extra space. 113 00:05:37,430 --> 00:05:39,520 >> Pat: When you're thinking about being able 114 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,840 to provide a crew with all the vitamins and minerals 115 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:47,550 and nutrients that they need, do you assume that it all comes 116 00:05:47,550 --> 00:05:51,790 from meals that they eat or are there other supplements 117 00:05:51,790 --> 00:05:53,280 that help you do that? 118 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:54,840 >> Dr. Perchonok: So currently on ISS, 119 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:57,110 International Space Station, the only supplement 120 00:05:57,110 --> 00:05:59,720 that the crew is required to take is vitamin D 121 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,600 because the only way to really get vitamin D in any quantity is 122 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,820 from the sun and obviously they're not having any sunshine. 123 00:06:07,820 --> 00:06:11,670 There are ways in the food to do it but not as easily. 124 00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:14,040 We have to make the assumption to try 125 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,700 to give them all the nutrients they need, all of the vitamins 126 00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:21,960 and minerals and protein, carbohydrate, fat, calories etc. 127 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,550 through the food because ironically, or much more 128 00:06:25,550 --> 00:06:28,320 of a challenge, is that nutrients 129 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,650 in a pill actually break down faster than the nutrients 130 00:06:32,650 --> 00:06:35,600 in the food so chemistry happens whether it's 131 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,830 in a pill form or the food form. 132 00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:39,360 It seems like that matrix 133 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,320 in the food is actually protecting the vitamins 134 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,830 so if we can bring up enough food with enough quantity 135 00:06:45,830 --> 00:06:49,080 of vitamins and minerals in that food we're ok. 136 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,280 The problem is in the packaged food system 137 00:06:52,280 --> 00:06:54,640 to make sure its stable without a refrigerator 138 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,430 or freezer we have to process it 139 00:06:56,430 --> 00:07:00,590 and that process often will be partly heat 140 00:07:00,590 --> 00:07:04,060 to kill the micro-organisms, or radiation to kill them, 141 00:07:04,060 --> 00:07:08,450 or drying it down to allow 142 00:07:08,450 --> 00:07:11,590 so that the micro-organisms can't grow. 143 00:07:11,590 --> 00:07:13,810 Now we have new technologies we're looking 144 00:07:13,810 --> 00:07:16,230 at microwave sterilization, high pressure, 145 00:07:16,230 --> 00:07:18,690 which look at killing the micro-organisms either 146 00:07:18,690 --> 00:07:22,030 by through the pressure of breaking the cell structure 147 00:07:22,030 --> 00:07:25,670 or microwaves but either way we're introducing a step 148 00:07:25,670 --> 00:07:28,830 that can kill not only the micro-organisms but some 149 00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:31,070 of the nutrients so we have that challenge in there. 150 00:07:31,070 --> 00:07:34,160 >> Pat: And that's part of what we do in the station food now 151 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,870 with the freeze dried food and thermostabalized food. 152 00:07:36,870 --> 00:07:37,250 >> Dr. Perchonok: Correct, correct. 153 00:07:37,250 --> 00:07:39,960 All of that is already on station and one 154 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,600 of our studies is looking at not only how much 155 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,490 of the nutrients you lose through the processing but then 156 00:07:46,490 --> 00:07:50,930 if you look at them at ambient or room temperature storage 157 00:07:50,930 --> 00:07:53,920 for one year or three years how much more are you losing 158 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,460 because unfortunately that chemistry continues to happen 159 00:07:57,460 --> 00:07:58,970 and we lose more nutrients. 160 00:07:58,970 --> 00:08:01,360 >> Pat: Does that mean you have to add more nutrients 161 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,150 to them ahead of time to account for the degradation? 162 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:07,200 >> Dr. Perchonok: So that's one way to do it and we would call 163 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,930 that fortification and actually in our beverages 164 00:08:09,930 --> 00:08:14,060 that are fortified because the beverages were dried 165 00:08:14,060 --> 00:08:17,360 and then you add the vitamins to it, 166 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,130 they actually do maintain more vitamin stability. 167 00:08:21,130 --> 00:08:23,370 The other way now is to protect those vitamins: 168 00:08:23,370 --> 00:08:24,720 Can you encapsulate them? 169 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,440 Can you do something else to them 170 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,410 so that they are more protected and think of it as almost 171 00:08:30,410 --> 00:08:35,290 like in a shell so that they don't react with the water 172 00:08:35,290 --> 00:08:38,890 or the oxygen out there and allow them to stay more stable 173 00:08:38,890 --> 00:08:40,730 for longer periods of time. 174 00:08:40,730 --> 00:08:43,460 >> Pat: It's very interesting to think about that 175 00:08:43,460 --> 00:08:45,220 down to the details but we sucked all 176 00:08:45,220 --> 00:08:47,950 of the excitement out of food too. 177 00:08:47,950 --> 00:08:48,970 [laughter] Are the crew members going 178 00:08:48,970 --> 00:08:53,770 to get bored having what I guess is a narrow selection 179 00:08:53,770 --> 00:08:55,540 over the course of two or three years? 180 00:08:55,540 --> 00:08:58,100 >> Dr. Perchonok: So that is another study we're doing is 181 00:08:58,100 --> 00:09:01,150 looking at how much variety do you need? 182 00:09:01,150 --> 00:09:03,930 How can you sort of mix it up a little bit 183 00:09:03,930 --> 00:09:05,570 with different condiments? 184 00:09:05,570 --> 00:09:06,790 How do you make it more special 185 00:09:06,790 --> 00:09:10,090 with extra you know special meals whether its holidays 186 00:09:10,090 --> 00:09:13,980 or birthdays or just say it's the first Sunday of the month 187 00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:18,400 but right now we have about 180 food items 188 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,150 on International Space Station and that seems to be well 189 00:09:22,150 --> 00:09:25,910 and then we have another hundred or so items from Russia 190 00:09:25,910 --> 00:09:28,500 and some more from Europe so we're probably 191 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:31,800 at about a three hundred number and that seems 192 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,450 to be the right number for a six month mission. 193 00:09:36,450 --> 00:09:40,200 What do you need for a two and a half year mission and that's one 194 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:41,330 of the reasons why we're looking 195 00:09:41,330 --> 00:09:43,010 at this bioregenerative food system 196 00:09:43,010 --> 00:09:45,560 because it introduces a little bit more variety, 197 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:48,000 it introduces a little bit more creativity, 198 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,930 well you know tonight I'm going to put 199 00:09:49,930 --> 00:09:52,580 in my pasta sauce bell peppers but not onions 200 00:09:52,580 --> 00:09:54,970 and the next night I'm going to put in onions 201 00:09:54,970 --> 00:09:57,720 and not bell peppers so it's a little bit different 202 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:00,320 but yes they are going to get bored, it's not like here 203 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,920 on earth where we can say I don't feel like eating anything 204 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,540 out of my refrigerator so I'm going to go 205 00:10:05,540 --> 00:10:08,270 to a restaurant tonight. 206 00:10:08,270 --> 00:10:10,940 >> Pat: If you get bored with the food as a crew member might 207 00:10:10,940 --> 00:10:14,450 in this circumstance do you find that they don't eat as much 208 00:10:14,450 --> 00:10:15,380 as they're supposed to? 209 00:10:15,380 --> 00:10:16,680 >> Dr. Perchonok: That is what we're finding 210 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:19,160 that they don't eat as much when they're bored with the food, 211 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:22,360 that the acceptability of the food goes down and so 212 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,350 and that's a big concern because this food allows them 213 00:10:26,350 --> 00:10:31,100 to perform well, keep healthy and more importantly it helps 214 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:34,390 to mitigate the bone loss and muscle mass loss 215 00:10:34,390 --> 00:10:38,800 that they do experience in microgravity. 216 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,270 >> Pat: What kinds of things do you have on the menu 217 00:10:41,270 --> 00:10:42,730 at this point, if we were launching 218 00:10:42,730 --> 00:10:44,020 to Mars tomorrow what kind 219 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:46,620 of food would be available for a crew? 220 00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:47,550 >> Dr. Perchonok: Well right now 221 00:10:47,550 --> 00:10:50,060 of our sixty plus thermostabalized items, 222 00:10:50,060 --> 00:10:51,990 which is basically canned food in a pouch, 223 00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:55,150 only seven of them have a five year shelf life 224 00:10:55,150 --> 00:11:01,190 and they all happen to be meat items so brisket, pork chops, 225 00:11:01,190 --> 00:11:04,170 meatloaf, so not a lot of variety 226 00:11:04,170 --> 00:11:08,590 but we're working towards trying to get that improved 227 00:11:08,590 --> 00:11:12,650 and making sure that they have a good variety of items just 228 00:11:12,650 --> 00:11:14,570 like they do on International Space Station 229 00:11:14,570 --> 00:11:17,400 from chocolate pudding cake for dessert, 230 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:23,170 to having scrambled eggs or a cinnamon scone for breakfast 231 00:11:23,170 --> 00:11:26,820 and you know fruit you know strawberries or whatever 232 00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:28,870 so we're working towards it. 233 00:11:28,870 --> 00:11:31,810 >> Pat: Now in this case you got maybe twenty years 234 00:11:31,810 --> 00:11:34,810 or more before we're ready to make that trip is 235 00:11:34,810 --> 00:11:38,330 that why we need to be preparing the menu now for a trip 236 00:11:38,330 --> 00:11:40,640 that doesn't launch until the twenty thirties? 237 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,530 >> Dr. Perchonok: Well you're right, we have a lot of time, 238 00:11:43,530 --> 00:11:47,070 however, the bioregenerative food system piece we're 239 00:11:47,070 --> 00:11:50,420 estimating could take ten if not fifteen years to develop 240 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:54,180 because not only do we have to determine what we want to do 241 00:11:54,180 --> 00:11:56,900 with it, what we want to grow but then what do you need 242 00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:58,910 to process and what equipment do you need for that 243 00:11:58,910 --> 00:12:02,800 and you'll have a galley that I describe as a sort 244 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,080 of a twenty first century galley 245 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,550 but a fifteenth century operations 246 00:12:07,550 --> 00:12:15,740 because you may have a juicer or a food processor but meanwhile 247 00:12:15,740 --> 00:12:19,000 if you're making bread you're either going to have to knead it 248 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,110 by hand or have a bread maker, 249 00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:23,350 or if you want grated carrots you're going to have 250 00:12:23,350 --> 00:12:25,720 to grate them, you can't go to the grocery store and pick 251 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,570 up those grated carrots so there's a lot involved 252 00:12:29,570 --> 00:12:31,990 in the bioregenerative food system. 253 00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:35,140 So what we're trying to do is say ok we're going to sort 254 00:12:35,140 --> 00:12:37,060 of put that out in the future 255 00:12:37,060 --> 00:12:40,150 and not necessarily do it right away but right now let's look 256 00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:41,800 at that packaged food system 257 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,200 because if we can extend the shelf life now that makes 258 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,850 that if you think about it 259 00:12:46,850 --> 00:12:50,440 if you can have a higher quality food up front 260 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,580 so that it doesn't it's still good in five years, 261 00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:55,170 think about how good it would be in one year or two years 262 00:12:55,170 --> 00:12:59,030 for International Space Station so we're working on that first. 263 00:12:59,030 --> 00:13:04,260 We hope to have a five year shelf life food system ready. 264 00:13:04,260 --> 00:13:07,110 Knowing how to do it, not necessarily having developed all 265 00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:10,950 of those two hundred plus products by about twenty twenty 266 00:13:10,950 --> 00:13:13,800 and then we can take some time to develop all 267 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,550 of those formulations, we don't call them recipes, 268 00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:17,680 we call them formulations. 269 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:21,580 >> Pat: It all sounds very interesting and be interesting 270 00:13:21,580 --> 00:13:23,710 to see how it turns out, what comes up next. 271 00:13:23,710 --> 00:13:26,350 Thanks for your for bringing us up to date on that. 272 00:13:26,350 --> 00:13:26,970 >> Dr. Perchonok: You're welcome.